In this episode, Belinda Pollard, Donita Bundy and Alison Joy interview Kirsten Holmberg, ghostwriter, editor and author of devotionals for Our Daily Bread Ministries. Kirsten, an introvert, has grown to love speaking at retreats and conferences, and coaches other public speakers, including pastors and TedX speakers. She shares practical tips and inspiration for the value of speaking aloud in a variety of contexts, even for the most introverted of writers.
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In conversation in this episode:
- Kirsten Holmberg, author of devotionals for Our Daily Bread, and public speaking coach
- Belinda Pollard, author of mainstream crime novels, writing coach, accredited editor with qualifications in theology, writing and publishing blogger at smallbluedog.com, and Gracewriters founder
- Donita Bundy, writing teacher, preacher and author of the Armour of Light supernatural fiction series
- Alison Joy, romance author, former early childhood teacher and mother of 4 adult children
Topics covered in this episode:
- How Kirsten got into devotional writing. How she researches and writes her devotionals.
- How Kirsten became a public speaker despite being an introvert. The enjoyment she now gains from public speaking.
- The value of public speaking for writers, both in terms of using it for marketing and developing your use of language.
- Creating little videos for online marketing. Being okay with being ordinary at first, and practising, and growing.
- Writing out speeches word-for-word and learning them by heart — versus using bullet points. Which parts to write in full; which parts to bullet-point.
- Ideas for speaking that are tailored for the topics you write about. Looking for themes that encourage even a person who is not your target reader.
- The causes of fear in public speaking, and tips for overcoming the fear, and reframing it as excitement. The biological responses for fear and excitement are the same.
Find Lisa Stilwell online
Website: https://kirstenholmberg.com
Article: https://kirstenholmberg.com/if-you-write-out-your-entire-presentation-do-this/
Check out Kirsten Holmberg’s book
Click the cover below, or title in the transcript, to find out more on Amazon (associate link that help earn a few cents for Gracewriters):
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Audio
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Transcript
Belinda Pollard: Welcome to the Gracewriters Podcast. Christian Writers changing popular culture. Hit subscribe on your favourite podcast player so you never miss an episode and join our community at gracewriters.com.
Today on the podcast, author and coach Kirsten Holmberg on the power of public speaking for writers. I’m Belinda Pollard, author, editor and book coach. I write award winning mystery novels and light memoir as well as devotionals and nonfiction. I blog writing and publishing tips at smallbluedog.com and you’ll find my creative writing at belindapollard.com.
Alison Young: Hi, my name is Alison Young. I’m m a former early childhood educator with four adult children and a passion for photography. I write contemporary romance with grace notes under the pen name Alison Joy and you can find out more about my books at alisonjoywriter.com.
Donita Bundy: Hi, I’m Donita Bundy, speaker, teacher, blogger and author of the spiritual warfare novel series Armour of Light. Find out more at donitabundy.com.
Belinda Pollard: Kirsten Holmberg is a speaker and author of devotionals, including contributing to Our Daily Bread Ministries and other publications. She’s also written a standalone Christmas resource, Advent with the Word. After she raised her family, Kirsten returned to the workforce in 2011 as a ghostwriter and editor, and also began coaching public speakers including ministers and TEDx speakers. She writes blog posts on topics of faith and speaks at retreats and conferences. Kirsten, welcome to the podcast.
Kirsten Holmberg: I’m so happy to be here. The only thing that would make it better is if we were in the same room. Thank you for having me.
Alison Young: So, to get our listeners or viewers a chance to get to know you about a bit better, we’d like to subject you to the Rapid-fire Five. Are you up for that?
Kirsten Holmberg: I’m ready.
Alison Young: Good, good. Okay. What is your target audience for your writing and speaking?
Kirsten Holmberg: My target audience for faith-based writing really is anyone that would be interested in a devotional. Now typically my work shows up in the Our Daily Bread devotional series and that target audience is often middle-aged people who are like me, eager to consume a little bit of the Treasure of God’s Word every morning.
Alison Young: So, what is your main genre then?
Kirsten Holmberg: I would say the lion’s share of my work is in non-fiction. Certainly, I would never accuse myself of being qualified to write fiction. I think that is such an enormous creative effort. So, nonfiction, if it’s not devotional, it’s more on the educational side. Something equipping in matters of faith, or instructional in matters of public speaking.
Alison Young: What’s your optimum time for writing?
Kirsten Holmberg: Oh, golly, it’s got to be the morning. If I have to write in the afternoon, I don’t make sense. So, I have to start my workday by writing. Now, I can edit in the afternoon, I can edit my own work in the afternoon, but boy, I have to write in the morning.
Alison Young: So where is your favourite place to write?
Kirsten Holmberg: Favourite versus more productive? I’m most productive if I’m actually sitting at my desk here in my office. But I think my favourite place to write is any place where I can let my eyes drift out the window. That visual relief from the writing lets me just have those creative juices work. I have a window in my office, but there’s prettier views to be had.
Alison Young: How did you get into writing, like, writing in general?
Kirsten Holmberg: I feel like I didn’t know that I was into it when I was writing emails to people about major life occurrences. But then it became something that I started to feel like I can actually serve people with my writing, encourage them, inspire them or equip them. That shift took place around 2008 when we moved from one state to another, and it became a way that I could stay connected to people. And then over time, that shifted even further into not just communicating with my friends and family, but communicating with other people about the ways God was at work in my life.
Donita Bundy: So, Kirsten, was that the natural progression then into writing devotionals, for publication?
Kirsten Holmberg: It did progress the way I just described it, but when it became codified as devotionals and really took on that form was after that. And this is just such a lovely God story where He gets all the credit. So, if you don’t mind my sharing it. I had connected with an old friend whom I had not seen in more than a decade, told her about my writing, and then she said, “You should meet my other friend who is a writer.” And so, we connected on Facebook, of all places.
And then I started seeing her posting devotional articles that she had written that were going into print with Our Daily Bread. And I was just gobsmacked. I was, “Wow.” Because I had started pitching some of my work to other publications and thought, oh, she’s doing it. Teach me your ways.
And then she said, well, would you mind if I passed on your name and your website over to an acquisitions editor at Our Daily Bread? And I thought, would I mind?? Would you please? So that was when it really started to take a focus, away from, or in addition to maybe, no, just focusing. I had been talking about the way God was at work and looking at verses and how that informed the way I responded to him. But then it took on this very devotional quality when I started writing for them.
Donita Bundy: So how do you research for your devotionals? Like, where do you start? What’s that process from beginning to the published or the polished finish?
Kirsten Holmberg: It’s a longer process than one might think. But as it relates to my process, which is the front-loaded effort here, there are two ways that I can approach that. The first way is when I start to see something that’s really interesting. Maybe it’s happening in the world around me. Or maybe I read a fascinating news article and then I think about, where have I seen that kind of spiritual truth show up in Scripture? And then I marry those two and write the article. The second way, of course, is when you’re looking at the Word and you know that there’s a lesson there and you want to make that accessible to someone else. And then you think, okay, where have I seen this true in real life? Or how would I explain this to someone who can’t read the Bible at this particular moment? And then I might go look for a story along those lines. Typically, I land over here where I’ve seen something amazing. There was a story in the Denver newspaper not too long ago about a woman who had brain surgery wide awake. And the surgeon wanted to do it while she was awake – anaesthetized, she was protected from pain, but she, it was so important to her that she sing and be able to continue to be able to sing that he kept her awake so that she could sing. And that way he would know that he hadn’t damaged that part of her brain while he was excising the tumour. That’s the kind of magnificent story that just turns into a beautiful devotional, doesn’t it?
Donita Bundy: So that’s where you get your topic selection? From the world going around you?
Kirsten Holmberg: Yeah, it just needs to be something that’s interesting and intriguing. Because if we all draw on merely the things that are happening right outside our windows or just outside our driveway, those tend to not be quite as captivating. So, I look for those really interesting stories.
Donita Bundy: Would you have tips for others who want to get into writing devotionals?
Kirsten Holmberg: Yes. And that’s to keep a journal or a file of some sort where you have… maybe someone tells this incredible story. Jot yourself a note in a journal or a piece of paper that happens to be in your pocket. Maybe it’s the cocktail napkin when you’re at the restaurant. You just think: that’s it. I need that. But having a treasure trove of those stories collected, that’s where I go when it’s time to actually write. It’s, “Oh, I, remember that story.” And, “How have I seen that spiritual truth borne out?” Looking for God actively in our surroundings. I mean, that’s great spiritual sharpening by itself. When we’re actively looking to see what God is doing in his creation, there’s an abundance of options there.
Belinda Pollard: The other half of your career is public speaking. Now, for many writers, even just the thought of public speaking makes their blood run cold. What was it that drew you to it, Kirsten?
Kirsten Holmberg: Let me back up first and just acknowledge that if you had asked anyone when I was in fourth grade, 10 years old, 11 years old, if you had ever asked me if this is something that I would want to do, I would have never believed you. Just that was an absolute impossibility.
But I would say that what draws me to it here is this is really the way the Bible was originally transmitted was verbally and collectively. And I think the reason that is so beautiful to me is because, of course, that’s the way the truth has been passed down generation after generation, century after century. And there’s something lovely about being able to partake of that in a setting, whether it’s faith based or not, this is the way we actually can learn. And there’s this collective effervescence that can occur. That’s Emile Durkheim, though I’m not saying that name right. Anyway, you get the point. When we’re all together and we share this moment and there’s something just lovely about it. So I enjoy those moments tremendously.
Belinda Pollard: I was terrified of public speaking as a child and through high school. And every time we got — we used to call them morning talks — and every time we got assigned a morning talk, I would be terrified from the time it was assigned until the time I had delivered it. And then I would be greatly relieved that it was over, and I had lived. And you know what? Now I love it. I love public speaking and it’s because of the connection. And I would never have had that. Now I’m an extrovert, although that’s unusual among writers. Surely you’re an extrovert too, Kirsten, if you love public speaking.
Kirsten Holmberg: I am an introvert, and I really rely on that definition of where do you get your energy? Are you energised by the time you spend with people or are you drained by it? Now I’m drained by it, even though I love it. I cherish my relationships and my friends, every opportunity that I can have with them. But I need to recharge afterwards. So that’s why I rely on that definition.
And I really do find that introverts make fantastic public speakers because we are able to moderate the flow of energy in that public speaking setting. I may not relish the opportunity to spend two extra hours before or after presenting because I might feel drained by that. But the actual public speaking, I’m an introvert and I love it.
Belinda Pollard: Donita, you do public speaking too, don’t you? Are you an extrovert?
Donita Bundy: Sorry, no. However, I really can identify with what you’re saying, Kirsten, about that energy in the room when you’re sharing those truths or what it is that you’re there to speak about. It is invigorating. It is that effervescence that gives you that high. I think it’s very different to being social as it is to being a public speaker. I think they are two different things.
Alison Young: It’s interesting for me because I don’t do a lot of public speaking and I’ve had three book launches so far and I’ve spoken at each one. I had a friend who was at all three of them and she said, she commented to someone else, she said, “Look, it’s been good to see Alison grow and be more confident with each book launch.” And I think, and sort of, I guess, more the passion because I, know the subject well, I guess because it’s my own book. So that helps, I guess.
Belinda Pollard: Does your speaking interact with your writing, Kirsten? Are the two ministries connected? How do they interplay with each other?
Kirsten Holmberg: Often what I write about, particularly in the faith domain, does ultimately, God willing, make its way into an opportunity to share that aloud with an audience. At some point in time, those become vignettes or illustrations in an overarching theme to talk around something similar.
When I’m writing about public speaking, I might also then turn around and speak on a similar issue in the public speaking domain. But I try on the public speaking side for my writing to be standalone, able to be consumed and helpful to someone, regardless of where they are in that journey. So, they do interact, but largely because it’s me, I am the overlap in that Venn diagram.
Alison Young: What is the value of public speaking for writers and especially for authors of books? And how can writers get started in this skill?
Kirsten Holmberg: I think there’s tremendous value here. I really… I want to honour the fact that many writers have chosen this career or felt called to this career, partly because it’s conducive to their temperament and that they would prefer in some ways to have that more solitary work, and that they’re just communing with God through that writing process.
What I will say is that when it comes time to actually put that work out into the world, today’s readers very much want to connect with the person behind those words. Whether you are a nonfiction writer or a fiction writer, they’re interested in you. That’s why you have people waiting for your next book. They’ve decided that they resonate with something that you write about. And so public speaking is a great way for you to continue to have those touch points with the people that are cheering for you and eager to hear from you.
I also want to call out the fact that we can engage through multimedia — meaning someone who reads also might like to listen to a podcast, also might like to have coffee, also might like to attend a conference. These are ways that we can just have multiple touch points and sometimes a different medium is more effective with someone on any given day.
So, these are tremendous opportunities when you’re launching your book into the world. And Alison, it sounds like this is exactly what you’ve done.
Can I share part of my book? Can I read a little bit aloud? But I would also say you all have done a podcast on managing the newsletter beast, which thank you for so candidly sharing your experiences and putting that valuable input out into the world. Alison, I think it was you who has this passion for photography as well and trying to come up with what are the ways that I could actually have that subscriber magnet? And you were trying to decide what can I put out into the world that isn’t my writing? And so, you all talked about, is photography something you can share?
So to get back to your question of, how can authors and writers begin to dabble in this public speaking world, I would say recording 90 second or two-minute videos, popping those out either on social media or on your blog as something to share. These are ways that the more frequently we can do it, the better we’re going to get at it. It is like anything that we do: practice on any one item benefits all future work.
So whatever rehearsal or whatever attempt you make at it is going to make you better at it in the long run. So I would start small and do it often. Challenge yourself to find some outlet on some regular basis and just do it. Don’t try to edit yourself, just do it. It’ll get better over time. Will you look back and wince at the early ones? Yes, you will. But don’t you look back at your earliest writing and kind of wince at that too? Are you sorry you started? Of course you’re not. You’re so glad you started. So get out there and just try it and even if you don’t publish it, that’s fine, just practise doing it.
Toastmasters International is another great way to plug in and do something regularly with public speaking. So that’s a very easy and accessible way. Many of their groups even meet online now, so not having one in your neighbourhood isn’t really an obstacle anymore.
Belinda Pollard: I did Toastmasters for a while, probably about six or seven years, and I found that really helpful. And one of the surprising things that was really helpful was doing the — they’re called table topics here, where they’re just an impromptu talk. So, as you’re walking up to speak, they’re giving you the topic and you’ve got to talk for two minutes on it.
Kirsten Holmberg: Exactly.
Belinda Pollard: And they were just so terrifying, those talks. And yet I found after I’d done them for a while, I was a better book editor. The language parts of my brain were just functioning more quickly. I could speak better when someone said to me: tell me about your book. These are all the language centres of the brain that we’re working on here. And it was amazing how much that helped.
And I’m also totally with you on that, Kirsten being able to speak in a video, because you know how video is taking off on social media, they’re all reels now instead of just still photos. And I’m like, oh, I can’t be dealing with that. But I’m seeing a number of writers who are accessing that and they’re getting on there and they’re talking. And that’s public speaking too. And it’s little, it might only be a minute or 90 seconds, but it’s a way that they’re growing their presence and influence and connections and possibilities.
Kirsten Holmberg: I would love to reframe public speaking as if you are using words out loud and someone else is in the room. Even if it’s a virtual room, it’s all public speaking. So, if we look at it that way, then we have ample opportunities to refine this. And the piece of advice that I would offer here, particularly for writers and authors, is that when someone asks you something, just use your writing skillset to frame that out.
Something as simple as a three-act structure. If I can answer the question they’ve given me using that three act structure, then what I say is going to have that story narrative framework that is engaging. And it tells me what I need to share and when. It means I know where to begin: at the beginning. I know what needs to happen. In the middle, there’s a little bit of tension. And then at the end, I need to bring some conclusion or some learning to it.
And if we use that as a tool for anything we say, it makes it easier for us. And actually, more importantly, easier for the person on the receiving end of that communication to understand and remember it.
Donita Bundy: They are brilliant ideas. And already my brain is spinning with like, oh, gosh, taking notes. So, thank you for that, Kirsten.
I was wondering if you could help us and just explain the difference between writing for the page and writing for the lectern.
Kirsten Holmberg: This is one of my favourite things to be asked. So, thank you for putting this question on the table. When I work with writers and authors, I so appreciate the premium that they put on the word choice and beautiful sentence structure.
One of the biggest challenges is stepping away from that when it’s time to deliver a similar message in a spoken format. It’s really important to remember in this spoken world that our audiences aren’t gonna pay attention for as long as we think they ought to. Now, the reason that’s significant is because when I choose to close the book and not read, that’s up to me. But I don’t get up and walk out of the room when someone’s presenting.
So, if I’m preparing for that, and what I would advise all of the writers here is really be sure that you’ve done something in the structure of your spoken message that lures the audience’s attention again and again, even in a short talk.
The other critical piece here is that your audience, when they’re listening to you, can’t go back and reread. They have to be able to follow your train of thought at the pace at which you deliver it. That means we need to choose shorter sentences and more accessible language. And then we need to deliver it at a pace that is easy for them to ingest. So we have to step away from maybe the most poignant word choice. And default to the most accessible word choice.
Now, I’m not saying that you need to be generic or pedestrian in the way you talk about anything. But I am saying to step away from, the complicated sentence structure and the more complicated word. We need to have our audience be able to get it and get it quickly so that they stay with us as we continue to talk.
Donita Bundy: Did you learn those lessons through making your own mistakes?
Kirsten Holmberg: I am famous for very long sentences, and you can hear my parentheses and my semicolons and my dashes in all of my speaking. It is editing that I have to do to this day, to shorten my sentences. I would say that, yes, I have made and will continue to make that mistake. I’m aware of it, so I have to go back and work on it.
But the bigger mistakes that I’ve made, and this is what I would love to offer to this group is what we have to remember that what we want to share isn’t always what the audience wants to hear. The biggest mistake that we make is not serving them. We need to be sure that we are, first of all, of course, heeding God’s call on our lives, but to not be there to champion our message, the one we want to deliver, and instead give them the message that they need.
So, here’s my big gaff. I had spoken at an event for adults who looked a lot like me, and there was someone in the audience that said, Kirsten, I’ve got a high school youth group that really needs to hear that. Now, the principle applied to both groups, but I tried to deliver it with exactly the same approach. You would never, as a writer, say, oh, well, this particular story belongs just right here in the adult section and also right here in the young adult section. We all know that when you say it. And yet that was the big mistake that I needed to learn from quickly. I’ve got to tailor this message to the audience and what they need.
Donita Bundy: When you’re, speaking, do you write your talks or your sermons or whatever you’re saying? Do you write it out word for word and learn them by heart? Or, what are some good practices for public speaking?
Kirsten Holmberg: I sometimes will write out a draft of the talk verbatim, but usually that’s me deciding what I want to say, meaning it’s me working through my thoughts. Some of us write to discover what it is we think, and I fall in that category. So, if I’m writing things out with complete sentences, it’s for that discovery process.
But then I jettison that very quickly because my advice to speakers is actually not to write it out verbatim. When we do that, we become married to the text and we set up the wrong metric for success. In that approach we are saying: I have to say it this way or it won’t have been successful. Whereas if our framework, the reason that we will decide that we were successful, is given more to, did the audience get what they needed? Then we can get away with bullets, something that will prompt us.
And the other disadvantage to memorising, of course, is that we start to sound robotic.
Now, there are instances when you should memorise a talk, but when that happens, knowing it by memory means you’re halfway there. Meaning there’s another whole set of work that needs to be done to get past memorization and into being able to have a natural expression in spite of that.
I tell people, memorise your first few sentences, because if you do that, then as you take the stage, as it were, you can deliver those while the adrenaline subsides.
Then if you’ve got key phrases throughout your content that need to be said a certain way. Sometimes we have to deliver material explicitly as written because maybe we’re meeting a legal obligation, or it has to be delivered that way because we’re quoting someone, then yes, memorise those, or read from them in that moment.
And then memorise the last few sentences because, in the language of gymnastics, it’s what lets us stick the landing. Craft those words very deliberately. Memorise them so that you can create that moment, that final blissful moment with the audience.
Belinda Pollard: Do you have tips for content for people? So, for example, people who are writing nonfiction, it’s going to be really clear to them what kinds of things they’re going to speak on. But sometimes, for the fiction writers amongst us, it’s a little bit harder.
Kirsten Holmberg: Everyone who’s writing, no matter the medium, no matter the genre, there is a learning that we hope someone takes from it. In fiction, we’ve written that in the language of a story, and we’ve hoped that we’ve been able to communicate that lesson to the audience throughout that narrative structure.
Well, you can talk about that learning, the moral of that story. That can be a way to create a talk from your content. How did you decide that that was an important lesson to share? How did you learn it? Did you learn it by observation? Did you learn it experientially? Did you see it depicted somewhere else that helped you learn it? So talking about that lesson that’s been learned, the theme around which you’re writing, that’s where we can take even fiction writing into an audience that maybe might not even be our readership, but there might be a lesson for them that they want or need. So that I’ve seen authors go into… like fiction authors go into business settings in that corporate environment and still be able to extract the lesson and share it with them.
Alison Young: What do you think causes the fear that so many people feel when called upon to give a speech? And how can that be overcome?
Kirsten Holmberg: We talked about some of us having this fear of public speaking and it’s not unique to writers, it’s not unique to authors. It’s the most common social fear out there. And so, let’s normalise it from the get-go and be able to say: this is typical.
Why though? That’s the question we’re really asking: what’s underneath that’s causing that fear. And I would actually suggest that we frame this as a good thing, particularly as people who are following Jesus. It’s saying, I care that I am serving well, that this message that God has endowed me with is now going to be delivered in service of another person. And so, it’s right that we care about that.
Proverbs, Ecclesiastes and other passages throughout Scripture talk about a good name as being valuable. Well, when we’re standing in front of an audience, we’re afraid that our reputation is on the line. And I would again say that’s a good thing. It’s not wrong to care about that.
What’s significant to note is that what’s happening in your brain in terms of fear is the identical biological response as excitement. So when you start to feel all those uncomfortable symptoms, like: I’m perspiring and I didn’t even know I could perspire there, or I don’t think I’m going to be able to eat for three days, my mouth is dry and I, my knees are knocking. I feel like I can’t see… all of these things, they’re also symptomatic of excitement.
One of my favourite moments backstage at a TEDx event was when someone came into the speaker green room and they asked: are you nervous? And this same person had asked every single speaker: are you nervous? Are you nervous? Well, heck, didn’t that make everybody even more nervous? Yes.
But one of my speakers had the presence of mind to say: I’m excited. And that changed everything for her. Not the biological response that was still happening, but when she looked at it as excitement, that helped.
So, beyond that, then I would also say that one of the best things we can do is find a time in our lives when we have overcome another fear. Maybe it was athletics in high school or as a child and we got nervous before that game or match. Well, how did we overcome that? Can we scaffold off of those experiences into the public speaking arena and find ways to help soothe that mechanism.
But remembering that God has given us this message, believing that we are in service of Him and in service of the people, that pushes the focus onto them instead of onto us. And that goes such a long way towards calming our nervous system.
Belinda Pollard: Kirsten, where can our listeners find you online?
Kirsten Holmberg: KirstenHolmberg.com and there people will also find direct links to my social media presence which is on LinkedIn.
Belinda Pollard: Excellent. Thank you. How about I pray for you and the Gracewriters.
Kirsten Holmberg: I would be honoured.
Belinda Pollard: Thank you, Lord, so much for the way that you have worked in Kirsten’s life over all these years that you have helped her to communicate, in writing, in speaking and to encourage and bless other communicators. I just thank you Lord for her and I pray that you will bless and empower her by your Holy Spirit as she continues in this really valuable ministry.
And I pray for all the Gracewriters out there who are a bit nervous perhaps about public speaking or who are wondering about how they can make more of it in their writing careers. I pray that you will strengthen and sustain and inspire and encourage them too, in Jesus’ name, Amen.
Kirsten Holberg, thank you so much for joining us on the podcast today. Thank you, Donita Bundy and Alison Joy. I’m Belinda Pollard and we will see you next time on the Gracewriters Podcast.
Continue today’s conversation on our blog and find useful tips, resources, encouragement and fellowship at gracewriters.com.
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