In this episode, Belinda Pollard, Donita Bundy and Alison Joy interview Jodie McCarthy, who writes quiet, contemplative words in the midst of a noisy and painful world. Her books of poetry and prayers are transparent expressions of grief and loss, but also hope and healing. Jodie is also honest about the times when creative writing needs to take a back seat for a season.
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In conversation in this episode:
- Belinda Pollard, author of mainstream crime novels, writing coach, accredited editor with qualifications in theology, writing and publishing blogger at smallbluedog.com, and Gracewriters founder
- Donita Bundy, writing teacher, preacher and author of the Armour of Light urban fantasy series
- Alison Joy, romance author, former early childhood teacher and mother of 4 adult children
- Jodie McCarthy, poet and author of three books
Topics covered in this episode:
- Journaling as a way of processing life, and how that led into blogging.
- How poetry helped Jodie process the emotions of infertility, miscarriage and grief.
- Becoming an “accidental author” when people shared her first book of poetry, and later an “accidental self-publisher”.
- Talking about hard things gives people permission to talk to you about their own hard things. Learning to hold other people’s heavy stories lightly helps you avoid overwhelm.
- How the content influenced Jodie’s production decisions, such as hardcover over paperback for a sense of solidity.
- Software (Scrivener) that helps with the process of organising a book and overcoming writer’s block. Also using old-school techniques and moving around handwritten or printed pages.
- Writing more poems than needed to allow choosing the best.
- The poetry market that is emerging on Instagram.
- Taking time from creative writing to work on analytical writing during a study program in Spirituality. A season of input rather than a season of output.
- The blessing of writing gracenotes in a time when the news is so heavy and everyone is feeling heavy.
- Jodie’s beautiful “prayer for creatives”.
Find Jodie McCarthy online:
Jodie’s website: https://jodiemccarthy.com/
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/jodie.mc/
Check out Jodie McCarthy’s books:
Find links to all Jodie’s books on her website and buy direct from the author here: https://jodiemccarthy.com/shop/
Or click the covers below:

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Audio
Video
Transcript
Belinda Pollard: Welcome to the Gracewriters Podcast – Christian Writers Changing Popular Culture. Hit subscribe on your favourite podcast player so you never miss an episode and find show notes, useful links and a full transcript at gracewriters.com.
Today on the podcast, Christian poet and author, Jodie McCarthy, on the seasons when we can’t write.
I’m Belinda Pollard. I’m an author, editor and book coach with a theology degree and 20 years in the publishing industry. I blog for writers at smallbluedog.com and you can find links to my books, blogs and online courses at belindapollard.com.
Alison Joy: I’m Alison Young. I’m a former early childhood educator with four adult children. Aside from writing, my other passion is photography and as part of the media team at my local church, I have the privilege of capturing God moments, both big and small. I write contemporary romance under the pen name, Alison Joy, and you can find out more about me and my books at alisonjoywriter.com.
Donita Bundy: Hi, I’m Donita Bundy. For the past 20 years, I’ve been using my theology degree to underpin my preaching and more recently, to inspire my urban-fantasy series, Armour of Light. You can find out more about me, my books, my book covers and blog at donitabundy.com.
Belinda Pollard: Jodie McCarthy writes quiet, contemplative words in the midst of a noisy and painful world. Her books of poetry and prayers are transparent expressions of grief and loss, but also hope and healing. Jodie is also honest about the times when writing needs to take a back seat for a season.
She lives in Perth, Western Australia, with her husband and two daughters. Jodie, welcome to the program.
Jodie McCarthy: Thank you for having me.
Alison Joy: Jodie, to help our audience get to know you a bit better, we’d liked to ask you to answer the rapid-fire questions. Are you up for that?
Jodie McCarthy: Yes, I am.
Alison Joy: Good. So, who is your target audience?
Jodie McCarthy: I would say my target audience is mostly Christians but because I write on hard topics like grief and loss, I will often have people who are spiritually seeking who read my work, as well.
Alison Joy: That’s good. Thank you. What is your main genre?
Jodie McCarthy: Non-fiction but also poetry, so I tend to write in those two places.
Alison Joy: What is your optimum time for writing?
Jodie McCarthy: I love to write in the morning. I’m definitely a morning person so that’s my time.
Alison Joy: And where is your favourite place to write?
Jodie McCarthy: I really like writing from home. Being a poet, I need space to write. I need to just be able to potter a bit and potter my way into things so, being at home is a really good place for me. I can’t write in cafes.
Alison Joy: Do have somewhere in the house specifically or just wherever you happen to be?
Jodie McCarthy: Yes, I move around a bit. It’s really important to be able to shift if things aren’t going well.
Alison Joy: So, how did you get into writing?
Jodie McCarthy: I’ve always written. I’m sure a lot of your guests would say this. I kept journals as a child and wrote stories.
And journalling, in particular, has been a great way of processing for me but writing intentionally probably came about after my eldest daughter was about nine months old and I was going a little crazy just being a mum and I decided to start writing a blog and that’s when I started my blog in 2010.
Donita Bundy: Jodie, your first book, Blank Pages, was a very personal project about infertility and miscarriage. How did these issues lead into poetry for you?
Jodie McCarthy: That was a natural process of my grief. The poems, initially, were written for me and that was the only way that I could hold those big emotions and get them out.
The choice of words in poetry, the way that you have to think about conveying emotion through them was really important to me and that actually held me together as part of my journalling process.
Donita Bundy: How did these issues and this process of that journalling come about into a book?
Jodie McCarthy: So the miscarriages happened in 2007, well, the first one happened in 2007, there was another one after that and my kids were born in 2009 and 2011 and I didn’t pull the poems together until 2012 and that was a thank you to family and friends who had supported us and just to let them know what had really gone on because it had been a very quiet, private grief that we had experienced.
So, I just felt I wanted to pull them together and give them to family and friends. And so, I did that. The day they arrived, I took them to each person I decided I was going to give them to and just dropped them at the door and then kept moving. And then that Sunday at Church, my sister-in-law’s best friend said to me, “Oh, I read your book of poems. It was so beautiful.”
And I suddenly went, “Oh my goodness. I’ve put something out there and it now has a life of its own!” In some ways, I was an accidental author because I didn’t realise that this was going to go further than my family and friends and it did. People came to me and asked for copies. So, that’s where that started with that one.
Donita Bundy: Initially, were you writing the poems for yourself or was it intended to be that explanation for your friends and family.
So, where was the initial seed for the poems and the book? Where did that come from?
Jodie McCarthy: The initial seed was writing for my grief. And then I chose from that selection of poems that I’d written, what I was going to pull together to give to family and friends.
Alison Joy: So, there was actually more poems than you actually put in the book?
Jodie McCarthy: Yes. And when I do poetry, there’s always more poems. You always have more and then you go, “Okay, I think I’ve got enough to pull a compilation together.”
I think it’s useful to have more because then you really make sure that you have the gold rising to the top there.
Belinda Pollard: I just found it interesting what you said about becoming an accidental author and with something so deeply private.
Are you ultimately glad that that happened? How did you process that feeling of being out there on display with something so personal?
Jodie McCarthy: I guess I’d already started talking about the journey quite a bit more after I had my children and I’d been blogging, as well, from 2010. There was an element of: this story is already being told. In some ways, while it was confronting, it actually felt natural. It felt like the next logical step.
And I find that often in my journey with God, He needs to give me a little bit of a nudge for the next logical step because I’m naturally risk averse and He naturally isn’t. He just pushing me a little and I find myself doing something, thinking, “Oh, look at that!”
Belinda Pollard: Infertility, miscarriage and stillbirth are topics that our society does not deal with well, at all. For many years we didn’t talk about them at all and pretended it was nothing. At least, now, there’s a bit more recognition of the amount of grief that occurs.
Do you feel it’s been positive for you and for your readers? Is it another little piece, perhaps, of healing for some people?
Jodie McCarthy: Yes, definitely. I remember my best-friend’s mother talking to me and in that time, they didn’t talk about miscarriage and she talked about how there’d been miscarriage in her journey with her kids.
Sometimes when you talk about these hard things, it gives others permission to talk about them too. And I find that often when I’m speaking or selling my books, I get given a lot of hard stories because people feel, because I’ve shared mine, they have permission to share theirs. And that’s a really holy, sacred thing. A really beautiful transaction that happens when the come to me and go, “Hey, I just want to tell you about this.”
And often they just need to tell me and I need to just hold it lightly, let it go as I head home and just leave it with God because if I hold all these heavy stories that they have given me, I’ll end up feeling overwhelmed.
Belinda Pollard: That sounds really wise.
Your second and third books, Beauty in the Ashes: Learning to Lament and Grace & Space: Prayers of Peace for Everyday Life, have they had similarities with the first? How did they come about?
Jodie McCarthy: So, Beauty in the Ashes, I felt like after I’d put out this Blank Pages, I felt like I still had more to say on this story and so, what I did there I had little essays that I wrote. I had memories of that time of grief, I had poems and I interviewed people who’d been through more silent griefs, mostly. Some of them were more obvious but mostly the more silent griefs that woman, in particular, hold onto.
So, I brought all that together and the aim of that book was to be a companion on the journey because there were a few books that were companions on my journey and that was very valuable so, to give someone else a companion on the journey of grief.
And that’s why I went hardcover with all my books because you need something that’s solid when you’re in a time of grief. You need that something that’s tangible, you need something to hold onto. So, that’s been a very intentional decision along the way, too.
Belinda Pollard: What was the creative and technical process like of drawing those books together?
Jodie McCarthy: So, different for each book. With Beauty in the Ashes, it was a long process because I was interviewing other people and then just trying to pull it together. A lot of shifting things around in Scrivener! Just going, “Okay, this doesn’t fit here. This doesn’t fit here.”
I remember at one stage, being totally blocked and realising that a whole chapter had to move and I sat there going, “Oh my goodness. I’m the author. I can do this!” And moving the chapter and then the flow opened up again.
So, Grace & Space was out of COVID and I felt that at the end of that time we needed to have just something to hold onto, some prayers, some blessings that people could use in what had been a particularly hard time but also a particularly ordinary time because everyone was in their own homes and dealing with those sorts of things. It’s a collection of 40 poems. I deliberately did 40 and the titles of the sections – I’m just going to look at what I called them because I’m a little rusty on what I called them: And so it Begins, In the Midst, The Unravelling, and then Grace & Space.
So, it’s prayers for beginnings, prayers for just the middle, prayers for when everything falls apart and then Grace & Space. It reminds me of Gracewriters, you talk about the gracenotes. It’s those things that are there that are unexpected and beautiful and come purely through Grace.
So, it’s just 10 poems in each section. Again, like I said before, I wrote more than I needed and then looked at where things needed to be. Sometimes I’d find there were gaps so I would have to look at where the gaps where and write something else and put that in.
That was nourishing for me, pulling that together and coming out of that time particularly because I’d been home with the kids and they were very anxious dealing with all the stuff that they needed to deal with, doing homeschooling, my husband at home and I didn’t have the space that I need to write. So, being able to pull that together at the end of all of that was really important for me too.
Alison Joy: Your first book, you just printed it, self-published, just for your family and friends.
Jodie McCarthy: Yes.
Alison Joy: But then, when you realised there was a bigger market for it, did you actually get a publishing deal or did you keep going with the self-publishing?
Jodie McCarthy: Blank Pages was always just self-publishing.
With Beauty in the Ashes, I did initially sign with a publisher but through circumstances, she was unable to continue that with me. So then, I just went, “Well, this book needs to be published so I am going to go and do the self-publishing journey there.”
So, that’s what I did and that’s what I’ve continued to do. I’m not looking for a publisher at the moment. It’s just very small and that’s fine.
Alison Joy: So, do you have any suggestions for other Christian poets who are looking to publish their works like, “Just go for it.”
Jodie McCarthy: I think there’s a market for poetry that is emerging particularly through Instagram. There are a lot of Instagram poets that you’re seeing coming out and there is a market for self-publishing and just selling your poems that way, definitely.
It’s very hard. It’s very hard to find an agent that will represent poets. It’s very hard to find a publisher that would take you on. The only reason I got the publishing deal, in the first place for Beauty in the Ashes, was because it wasn’t just poetry.
So, yes, I think it’s more accessible than it used to be to self-publish and get your stuff out there.
Alison Joy: Did you realise that you had a theme that you could put them into or is it just like, I want to do this and do these fit the theme?
Jodie McCarthy: It’s a bit of both. You’ve got a collection of poems and you pull them together and you go, “Oh, these are all kind of this idea and these are this idea and these are this idea.”
Initially, I think I’d had something like seven sections which was ridiculous and I was looking at a pilgrimage journey up and down and ended up still kind of being a journey with the beginning, a middle, the falling apart and then the grace and space but it was a lot more logical.
It’s kind of a bit of both.
Alison Joy: So, do you hand write or do you type?
Jodie McCarthy: Poetry is always handwritten, always.
Often, that’s where it starts. Sometimes it edits and evolves on the computer. I’m saying often it edits and evolves on the computer but I can see in my head, pages with scribblings and shiftings. So, I know it doesn’t all happen there; definitely not.
Alison Joy: I’m just curious as to your process, when you’ve written it do you shove it into a file somewhere or in a sleeve somewhere or how do you store them or look after them or keep them.
Do you go back to them all the time or once they’re done, they’re done?
Jodie McCarthy: Yeah. Blank Pages, I remember printing everything out and having it on the floor and shifting them through and going, “Okay, how’s this going to work?”
Scrivener has been brilliant for me because I shift things around a lot so, with Grace & Space, that’s what I did there. So, you can put more in and then you’ve got a question mark folder and you pull them out and sit them there until you know.
And also, I sent Grace & Space to a friend to critique and she gave me really valuable critique to say, “I think you need to, this has repeated itself. I think you need to look at this gap here.” So, that was really important, as well, as part of the process.
Alison Joy: Thank you.
Donita Bundy: Jodie, we understand that you’re studying this year and your writing had to take a backseat for a while. First of all, what are you studying?
Jodie McCarthy: I’m studying a Masters of Spirituality at Whitley College in Melbourne.
Donita Bundy: And how long is the course?
Jodie McCarthy: Well, it’s six years part-time. So, yes, it’s an adventure!
Belinda Pollard: What’s a Masters in Spirituality? What does that involve?
Jodie McCarthy: What I’m actually looking at, in particular, is being a Spiritual Director.
So, that’s someone who sits with others and has a kind of holy listening. Creates a place of holy listening for the person who’s being directed to listen to God and the Spiritual Director asks careful questions and that is something that I can see that I am very interested in doing eventually, at the end.
Donita Bundy: I’ve looked at a similar course a number of years ago and part of that was a thesis.
Jodie McCarthy: Yes, I will be writing that at the end.
Donita Bundy: So, you will be doing some writing.
Jodie McCarthy: I’m definitely doing writing.
Belinda Pollard: Not creative writing.
Jodie McCarthy: Yes, and that’s it. It’s a different brain, analytical writing. I’ve got a 3,000 word essay that I’ve got due next month.
Even the first unit that we did was on contemplation and you’re reflecting on your own contemplation and you’re having to analyse how other people talk about contemplation. So, there’s a lot of dissecting that happens and so, I’m finding it’s not conducive to my creative brain.
That said, I’m still journalling heaps. Nothing’s going to stop that. That’s my way of processing things in life but writing for an audience in a creative way, that’s less able to happen in this time. And it seems to me like it’s a season of input and I find this happens quite often where you have all these things and you input, input and then you output and then you take a break, if you’re sensible! And then you have that happen again and that seems to be the way, for me, that my writing has evolved.
Donita Bundy: Jodie, I would be interested to know how you handle the transition from that creative, contemplative writing in poetry and prayers to that analytical research writing for your Masters.
How did you find that shift?
Jodie McCarthy: It’s been massive, actually. It’s 25 years since I did formal study and the whole way that that looks has changed. It’s wonderful that I can study with Melbourne online but it is a huge shift for me.
I’m kind of experiencing an imposter syndrome all over again in a different area.
Donita Bundy: Has there been a sense of loss, or your own sense of grief, in having to put aside that creative writing so that you can do the study or is it all part of the seasons you were talking about where now you’re filling the well? Is there a grief in setting that other stuff of writing aside, the creative writing side?
Jodie McCarthy: Not at the moment. I think over the six years, if it keeps going that long, I will find that.
I’m loving the input at the moment and I’m really enjoying just expanding my brain in that way. So, at the moment, because as well I’m journalling, I’m reading a number of very interesting people like Saint Ignatius. I’m just finding that the input is sustaining me, at the moment, but it will be interesting to see how that goes throughout the whole journey.
Donita Bundy: Would you have any advice for other writers who are in seasons of their lives, for whatever reason, it may not be study but they’ve had to put down their writing for a while because of circumstances?
Would you have a word for them or an encouragement for them when they’re feeling confused or uncertain about that season?
Jodie McCarthy: Yes. In my life I’ve been a teacher, I’ve been an immigration agent, I’ve been a writer and when I look at that thread of the whole way through, it’s all about words. There’s a common thread of words so I feel like nothing’s lost. The words are always there. The words are always being used and maybe it will be used in a different way.
Like, for me at the moment, I’m writing essays but I feel like what we’re given and the journey that we’re taken on is always evolving and constantly surprising, as well!
I don’t feel like it’s going to go away. I just don’t know how it’s going to look in the end.
Belinda Pollard: Just for the listeners out there, I’ve had a number of seasons where I’ve not been able to do creative writing for… one time I think it was for three years. So, stuff happens and may I just say that just because you’re not writing at the moment it doesn’t mean you’ve ceased to be a writer or that you’ve lost your calling.
Jodie, you’ve written a poem that is a prayer for creatives. May we ask you to read it for us, please?
Jodie McCarthy: Prayer for the Creative
As we timidly enter this creative life dipping our toes in the water, testing the temperature. As we wade deeper, finding our way our steps uneven and unsure seeking firm footing. As we slowly submerge even more of ourselves, relaxing into the current of our art.
May we navigate the ebbs and flows.
May we learn when to float on the tide of inspiration. And when to escape the eddies of self-doubt.
May we ride the swells of emotion, the crests of confidence, the lulls of apathy, and the troughs of despair.
May we stand strong in the pummelling waves of too much. Too sensitive. Too loud. Too colourful. Too introverted. Too invested.
May we know that we have been divinely created to grasp in our hands the elusive trickle of ideas, gathering each drop to make emotions come to life.
May we allow ourselves to be a channel letting our gift flow through us and releasing it when required. And out of the overflow of our hands, may we give sustenance to those who are parched and dry. Amen
Belinda Pollard: Amen.
Alison Joy: Oh, wow!
Donita Bundy: Thank you.
Alison Joy: So, our Gracewriters slogan is Christian Writers Changing Popular Culture, what are your thoughts on that and is it possible to influence society in quiet ways?
Jodie McCarthy: Yes. I’m reading the news and I’m talking with friends, we’re all heavy. We’re so heavy and we just need hope and I think that that is something that can be given in a really gentle way.
I have a quote by Sarah Bessey above my desk and it says:
Baffle them with your ferocious gentleness, with your life giving, with your prayer, with your wonder.
And I think, sometimes just looking for the good and looking for the hope. Not saying that things aren’t terrible. Being honest when things are hard but also looking for the beauty and the gold in the midst of that is something that we can do as Christians.
I think the fact that Jesus sat with people in their circumstances as a human being is just phenomenal and just being present with people can be such a gift.
Alison Joy: Thank you. I appreciate that.
Belinda Pollard: Wow! So much to think about there, Jodie.
Where can listeners find you online?
Jodie McCarthy: So, my website is jodiemccarthy.com. I’m also on Instagram at Jodie.mc. Those are the two main places where you’ll find me.
Belinda Pollard: How about I pray for you, Jodie?
Jodie McCarthy: That would be great. Thank you.
Belinda Pollard: Heavenly Father, we thank you so much for this beautiful conversation today and how much it’s meant to all of us and we thank you for Jodie and for the ways that you are working in her life and in her writing, in her creativity, in her determination to grow as your child and as your minister to others.
We pray that you will continue to lead and guide and strengthen and encourage her throughout her studies and into her more creative writing in the future, as well.
And I pray for all the poets out there that are wanting to honour you with their words. I pray that you will strengthen and sustain and lead and guide them and that you will bring change and bring hope through our writing and our gracenotes, in Jesus’ name. Amen.
Belinda Pollard: Jodie McCarthy, thank you so much for joining us on the podcast today.
Thank you, Alison Joy and Donita Bundy. I’m Belinda Pollard and we will see you next time on the Gracewriters podcast.
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